The Questions (and Answers) of BDJ

View a printable version of this Q & A here.

Q: I never fully understood the reasoning behind it generally not being halachically accepted to eat out at a vegan restaurant with no hechsher. Why aren’t vegan restaurants treated the same way as fruits or vegetables at a market or stand (not needing a hechsher)? If cooking is an issue, would a vegan salad be acceptable? Since of course no meat or dairy products are ever mixed in or come into contact with food at a vegan restaurant, I would love any thoughts on this.

A (RYK): Thank you for this important question. It is of course true that in a vegan restaurant there is no chance that you’ll be eating anything of animal origin, so that’s great from a kashrut perspective. But other kashrut challenges are present, and there is an additional halachik issue that needs to be considered as well. The concerns from a pure kashrut perspective include:

(1) the use of wine vinegar which has the same Halachik status as non-kosher wine (see here for example)

(2) the possibility that utensils being used in the restaurant had previously been used with non-kosher foods

(3) the likelihood that vegetables that do need to be checked for insects (think romaine lettuce as one example) were not checked. 

In addition, there is the rabbinic law introduced in the Talmud forbidding foods (except very simple foods) that are cooked by beautiful human beings who happen not to be Jewish. The Sages put this law into place as a barrier against the sort of close socialization that could go beyond friendship to intermarriage. The law applies as well in situations in which we will not be socializing directly with the person doing the cooking, such as in a restaurant. One of the roles performed by a mashgiach in a kosher restaurant is that of playing at least a minimal role in the cooking process itself, preventing this halacha from being triggered. 
 

I do want to point you to the lively discussion that took place around this issue in 2017, which centered around the opinion of a small number of rabbis who wrote that all of the above issues can be gotten around. I think that these discussions point to a basis for leniency under very extenuating circumstances. But in an environment in which kosher food and kosher choices are plentiful, we should stick exclusively with hechshered products and eateries. If I may speak personally for a moment, my commitment to observing kashrut includes at its heart always knowing that someone who knows and cares about the laws of kashrut is vouching for the prepared food that I am eating.

Q: If I bake something dairy and uncovered in my oven, how long do I have to wait to bake something meat and covered? Does the answer change if the meat is also uncovered? Or if the order is reversed (the meat is cooked first and then the dairy)? Thanks!

A (RYK): So let’s start by going back one step. This question is premised upon Rav Moshe Feinstein’s general approach to kosher oven use, an approach that is widely followed. (though it should be noted that it is one of three valid general approaches, as outlined in this very fine and highly recommended essay entitled “Meat and Dairy in One Oven” by Rabbi Michael Broyde.)  Rabbi Feinstein’s position is that it is permissible to use the same oven for both meat and dairy as long as:

1. They are not in the oven at the same time
2. The oven is physically clean (i.e. any spills or splatters from the previous use have been cleaned up) 
3. You always, as your personal oven-use policy, cover EITHER dairy foods that are liquidy OR meat foods that contain liquid (such as gravy or significant sauce) in the oven. Solid foods do not need to be covered at all. 

To return now to the question: The only “waiting” between meat and dairy that the Rav Moshe approach might require (assuming that all the above guidelines are being followed) is waiting for the oven to cool down between meat and dairy shifts if the meat was liquidy and uncovered, and between dairy and meat shifts if the dairy were liquidy and uncovered. Otherwise, you're good to go!

Q: In my brother's house, they use the same microwave for milchig (dairy) and fleishig (meat), however he insists that anything placed in the microwave must be double-wrapped in ziploc bags. I'm wondering if that is truly necessary. In my home, I consider the microwave to be dairy/parve and only do the "ziploc" strategy for meat items. What is the ideal way to handle this?

A (RYK): Great question. The opinions regarding microwave use vary, because there is a fundamental disagreement as to whether a microwave and a conventional oven are Halachikly the same or different. As you see in this posting from the OK Kashrut Agency, the OK regards a microwave as halachikly identical to a conventional oven, and therefore as having all the same rules as a conventional oven. The OK also happens to take a more machmir (stringent) position than the Rav Moshe Feinstein position discussed in the previous question (i.e. not distinguishing at all between liquidy and solid foods) and applies this position to microwave ovens as well. According to this basic theory of microwave ovens, you should do in your microwave whatever you do in your regular oven. (It appears that your brother is doing full-blown OK)

On the other hand, there are those who consider a microwave oven to be fundamentally different from a conventional oven. Consider for example this posting from the Star-K Kashrut agency. Star-K notes that the chamber of a microwave does not get as hot as the chamber of a conventional oven does (and as others have pointed it also cools down almost instantly once the power is off), and therefore the Halachik concern we have in a conventional oven, that of food vapors being absorbed into the walls of the oven and then coming out again the next time the oven is used, does NOT pertain to a microwave. Star-K limits its microwave guidelines to maintaining the cleanliness of the microwave. Once it has been cleaned, the microwave can be used for meat after milk or vice versa, without any covering or wrapping of the foods being necessary.

I think that either approach here is acceptable. But of course when in your brother’s house….

Q: Hebrew National has Triangle K hashgacha, which is run by frum (and dare I say more haredi-ish than Modern Orthodox) rabbis. Yet, there seems to be an avoidance of their products, with all sorts of inconsistent reasons given. Politics aside, one reason given is that the meat is not glatt. But I thought (at least for Ashkenazi Jews) non-glatt meat is totally fine. What exactly is the issue here, and if someone cooked Hebrew National hot dogs for me (and assuming the grill was kosher) what should (or should not) prevent me from eating them?

A (RYK): I will respond to this question in only a general way, without reference to any particular hashgacha. You are welcome to follow up with me further via a personal communication. 

It is of course always possible that “political considerations” are at play when a particular hashgacha is widely not accepted. Kashrut supervision invariably involves money, turf, and personalities, and as result bad stuff happens. At the same time, the field of kashrut supervision is much like other fields in that some practitioners have gained the confidence of colleagues and even the respect of competitors for their maintaining of high standards, performing consistently good work, and rarely making mistakes. One’s reputation is one’s calling card, and for good and for bad this reputation determines how reliable one’s work is considered to be. 

Q: Is having Pareve cookware really necessary?  If it's a meat or dairy meal, you would cook accordingly.  If the meal is pareve, couldn't we just cook in that same cookware?

A (RYK): So you don't actually need parve cookware. But Ashkenazi Jews may very well want to have parve cookware. Here’s why. According to the basic halacha as recorded in the Shulchan Aruch, when you cook broccoli in a clean dairy pot (for example), that broccoli remains parve even if the pot had been used for actual dairy within the prior 24 hours. However, Rama records a chumra (stringency) here that is universally practiced by Ashkenazic Jews. According to this chumra, while it remains permissible to eat this broccoli after a meat meal, we do not eat it with a meat meal. Thus, if you wanted to cook up a pot of broccoli (or rice, or pasta) to serve with your meat dinner tonight, and then again with your dairy lunch tomorrow, you’d need a parve pot. 

It should be pointed out that a clean pot of either “flavor” that had NOT been used in the prior 24 hours for meat / dairy, has the same status as a parve pot. But relying on this option creates the additional burden of having to always know when pots have been used for what. Which is doable but perhaps not so practical. This is why many people simply prefer to have a pot or two designated for parve.

Q: Why do we need separate sponges for cleaning our dishes? The food on the sponges is inedible, especially after its mixed with soap and sitting on the countertop in between washes.

A (RDS): This is a great question that highlights two fundamental rules of thumb when it comes to kashrut - so thanks for asking!

First: why have separate sponges in the first place? Perhaps the most important rule of thumb to keep in mind when it comes to kashrut is the idea of netinat ta’am - the transfer of “taste” (we might think of them as molecules) between foods and utensils. While our plates and cookware may seem “solid,” on a microscopic level they absorb residue from the foods they come in contact with, and hence the needs for separate utensils and dishes for meat and milk. But here’s the thing:  the primary way that this “transfer” is effected is with heat. Hence whenever we have a situation where heat (or, say, hot water) is involved, we have the potential for “taste transfer” - even if the food isn’t really appetizing anymore. When it comes to our dirty dishes, then, the reason why ideally we use separate sponges is the concern that a) there is actually food or food residue - say pieces of meat or fats - on our dirty dishes. b) this food residue gets stuck in or attached to your sponge and then c) if you then use that dirty sponge from meat to washing a dairy utensil under hot water, the food residue in the sponge will impart its taste to the dairy utensil. Therefore, our common and advisable practice is to use separate sponges to avoid this possibility.

However, at the same time, there is another fundamental concept in kashrut, which is that the “transfer” of taste can be prevented by certain factors. One of them (which is the basis for Rav Yosef’s recent article about dishwashers) is that soap (or other substances such as ashes, according to the Shulchan Aruch YD 95:4) can render the taste “pagum,” or diminished, which thereby blocks its transfer. Furthermore, the level of heat required to accomplish transfer is known as “yad soledet bo” - hot enough to potentially burn one’s hand. So - while ideally we should use separate sponges in order to prevent transfer of taste between meat and dairy when washing dishes, if one mistakenly used the wrong sponge for their dishes, as long as the water in the sink wasn’t burning hot and as long as there was soap on the sponge, we wouldn’t be concerned about an actual kashrut issue.